Aug 24, 21:33
So, how to get rid of it if we find it undesirable?
Well, first of all its not making get away with it because as long as players can, for example, farm for gold or items to get more that non farming people it wqill exist, and RPG game without loot is usually wery bland unless otherareas are really great. Maybe wanting loot is just bad fixation that should be done away too, but it is there ans it not my peevee.
So, dont remove it, only make it pointless. Thats, remove all statistical bonuses from rewards of grind.
Its pointless as you don’t receive any bonuses, of course, but that does not remove it. For example rewards that are plausible are:
- Good looking weapons or armors
- Skills with over the top graphical effects which duplicate ordinary skill statistical effects.
- Random dispalyable stuff like titles for monster count kills or for compleltition of some Grindy task
You should like it because it gives accomplishments but in no way hurts players not wanting to take part in it. It’s win/win situation.
That fixed endgame grind, which is worst problem, but we still have to get around progression grind. That is somehoe easier:
- No kill X of something quests, unless X is one.
- Quests with bring me Y of something should have Y equal to zero and have guaranteed drop when first enemy that drop it is killed.
- All experience needed to level to maximum level should e possible to get throught varied quests. Even better, removel elves at all. It gets rid of most of bugged progression grind automatically.
- Items should have rich bonuses – maximum equipment easily achieveable, but amount of bonuses varies and is balanced enough to make challenge of getting best items for your playstyle isntead of getting simple best item.
— Zwei
Design, Musing
Aug 24, 21:32
But it is something to do once I finish game!
Properly designed game would still have challegens left in it even for expert players. Challenges that are not based on repetition but rather at figuring them out. There should be always possible better combo to try in certain area. Big enough game world will still offfer missed quests or unseen sceneries. Even something as simple as trying character with different playstyle renews whole game.
But that is not answer, answer is: You finished game, maybe it is time to move on. Remind yourself that that game was not meant to be playet for your whole life. Eventually servers would go down anyway.
If you want it to kill your time with grind, you are free to do it yourself. You do not need title to kill one million Rats. You can still show off on forums that you collected thousand dragon eyes. Yes, it is pointless. But dont be mistaken: well deisgned Grind should be pointless.
People should work for (some grind reward).
Its wrong, first of all, it is just game. If you take it seriously enough to decide that some content is accessible only for few chosen anfter X (X being number with two or more digits) hours, you need to reevaluate your goals. Your goals in real life out there, you should see that there are more worthy goals that require serious work. Anyhthing out there is worth more than few pixels.
It is stupid to impose your own (skewed) values on others. Games are there to give fun. While achievents in them should have some value, that value should be based on players own feeling, not on peer pressure (which means that player should not look onto thers and compare what it took them and what it took him to get that reward.). And that feeling should be based on over coming challenge or simply on workd well done, not on ability not to fall asleeep or on ability to resist pain of carpal tunel.
Elite players should have way to differentiate themselves.
In that case, it should be by deeds, not by possessions. Just like good plumber and bad plumber are set apart by work they do anbd not tools they use, Elite players should not be elite only because of extensive gemaply time, but because they are genuinelly good players.
Basically, you should not deny fun or power to other people. Want ting to do that can be called only selfish.
— Zwei
Design, Musing
Aug 24, 21:31
Grind, why does it exists?
It could be philosophical question. But there are ultimatelly two kinds of grind:
Progress slowdown grind: It is there to keep you in one area for set of time to prevent you from progresing faster. Generally, its noticeable only if you dislike that area or if you are looking forward for next one. Origin of this is with games like Ad&D where generally adventures were tiered – after completition of each it was assumed that characters move on on to next power level and thus get ready for next, more challenging adventure. Thus GM usually had adventures ballanced for level one character, seccond for level two etc.. Somehow this style of progression became basis of computer roleplaying games as levels and stats are easily computerized unlike stories. For MMOs this type of progress is slowed down as it gives feeling of bigger world and that it keeps players playing loger. It is simply unfavorable for publisher to game game which you finish in same time like you would finish offline RPG as he would miss your monthly fees.
Endgame grind: This is different beast and is exclusive to MMOs, its task is simple: to keep you playing even after you think you did it all. Bad thing is that this one is usually activelly sought for by players who refuse to acknowledge that they finished game and who got addicted enough to want more of it at cost of playing zombie of game – play only to see some number rising up without experiencing any new content.
So, why does it exist? It’s because publishers want to keep people locked in game as long as it’s possible. That might be not really ethical reason, but it is their business model and players should acknowledge that.
But there is seccond reason, less agreeable: Because players want it themselves. Old joke is about size of ‘electronical’ penis – there are people who find joy in collecting various virtuall assets and using them as base of their self confidence and satisfaction. Enlarging their penis in a way. Some other feel that exclusive hard to get things are difference between noob and pro and use such things to get higher ground in player interaction. If that thing is not only status symbol but gives player actually power, it’s only better.
For theese people it is important that whatever all of comunity desires is inherently easy to obtain but requires a lot of dedication. Grind goals are exactly this – never too hard only requiring a lot of time.
This mindset also differeates them clearly from people who play for fun and who wont do grind as it is anithesis of fun or people who play skillfully who might eventually do it as it gives them needed tools, but will despise it as it requires no skill or inventiveness (unless it is in finding exploit to bypass grind).
But main problem is not attitude of people liking it or that people like it, it is when grind is not pointless for whole playerbase, but when it rewards with tanglible, desirable and something even necesary power.
In that case it must be removed mercilessly, but that conflicts with electronical penic group directly as it is base of their player habts and desires.
— Zwei
Musing, Design
Aug 24, 21:29
Grind is term based on MMO games with many definitions, to make sure this goes in right way, lets define it:
Grind means that ot reach goal players uses repetative actions requiring little thought and no variation. Each succesfull iteration puts player closer to goal but does not reach goal itself. In the end player is rewarded with more power. or simply: Task where main challenge is having enough time to complete it and/or to find exploit which enables faster completition.
Usually, reward of grind is highly desirable and even status symbol, but sometimes it is simple necesity to stay competitive (i.e. farming for Potions or for money for weapon repairs.)
Examples of grind:
- Job Skills like fishing or alchemy – Theese give little challenge on themselves
- Leveling – Once players run out of quests to fuell experience, all that is left is killing one mob, usually there is always best mob to level on for each level.
- Quests requring X quantity of enemies slain or X quantity of drops collected.
— Zwei
Design, Musing
Aug 24, 20:51
Player skill is not really what it seems. It’s definitely not just button mashing.
It has several components, all of them are important when determining success.
- Courage. Being able to put unusual ideas on table without fear of rejection. Actually going out there and doing something instead of dismissing it as certain failure.
- Personality. Making friends who will help out and keep them. Not fearing to ask for help. Helping others to cooperate by resolving heated situations and by keeping good mood.
- Selflessness. When it comes to playing unpopular, but needed roles, being the one who temporarily abandons his preferred gameplay style for good of party. Being able to follow lead.
- Respect and Honor. When someone else makes mistake, pointing it out, but without belittling him. Not abandoning team because of minor setbacks. Being able to give out advice. Even when someone is completely unsuited for tactics you have in mind, telling him reason when you abandon him so that he can improve.
- Wisdom. Ability to seen ones own mistakes and limits and undoing them. Ability to listen to advice, and to act on it.
- Creativity. Approaching new situations with clean mind and not just reusing old tactics automatically. Taking in concept and perfecting it. Not clinging on old stuff that just works when there is something new that works better.
- Knowledge of game mechanics. Knowing what works and what does not. Being able to communicate it to people who don’t.
Being good player is a lot of thing, but being decent human being comes first, because without it you just can’t play on higher level, or hope to achieve something in game when skill matters.
— Zwei
Gameplay, Musing
